STEVE: I will continue to speak out against error, especially the error of those who are influencing vast numbers of the unwary.
RA: Please feel free to go through those links and outline for me the errors in Rick Warren’s teachings that I might see them. You specifically mention “the other accumulating support” regarding Warren’s:
“apostasy” – please prove by factual data
“theology” – please show in the above links where he is theologically flawed.
TY
RAbanes
S: If what I said sounded rude, I make no apology, it is too late for that now.
RA: Please provide the scripture that details where it is acceptable as a Christian to be rude.
RA
_______________________________________________
Mr Abanes ask that I “provide the scripture that details where it is acceptable as a Christian to be rude.” Need I teach the famed researcher that God’s ministers were often accused of being rude, with harsh speech, and lacked refinement? Why was John accused of having a devil and Paul of madness? Since the religious men who harassed John and Paul knew Scripture they had only one recourse, and that was to attack the preacher. Their stance on the truth caused them to be labeled as divisive and trouble makers, and rude; they had no respect for the Devil and his ways. If Mr Abanes rightly understood the fear of God he would not only be rude himself on occasions, but expect it from his own ministers. Need I remind him that it was the Lord that destroyed all of humanity in the flood; how rude was that? For a hundred and twenty years Noah preached to these people, in no uncertain terms, that they were dead men walking! Abanes’ god is an effeminate god of universal love and compromise, always begging, and weak. Are we to be cultured gentlemen when dealing with the error coming out of the Church today. As I said, it is too late for that now. When I read Tozer, or Spurgeon I don’t hear politeness, do you? When you read Joel, Amos, Jude, or Revelations do you hear the blast of horns or the sound of a flute? And, Jesus, those “eyes as flames” and that two edged sword coming from His mouth, I see rudeness there, what do you think that sword and fire represent? I served two years in Viet Nam ‘68 and ‘69 I know what war is about and I know what this Christian warfare is about, it is about dying; it is not about being a substitute grandfather, an organizer, entertainer, babysitter, or doing weddings. What the likes of Warren and his buddies are doing to the Church, (although others share the blame) is it any wonder that the Lord asked if there would be any faith on the Earth at all when He returned?
I will not apologize for being rude to Mr Abanes, but I will say that I am in good company with some of whom I do not deserve to share the stage. These that I speak of were uneducated, ignorant, uncultured, unrefined, course, rough, severe, tough, violent, and rude men, who had a real purpose, and it was not their own. There is a time and a season for all things, even rudeness.
As far as outlining for Mr Abanes all of Rick Warren’s errors, I will not do this. All the documentation is readily available to anyone, especially a trained journalistic researcher, on the internet. I would suggest that he spend the day reading at Lighthouse Trails website. If that isn’t enough there is only about a hundred other places he can get his information, if he is sincerely interested in finding the truth. But, unless there is a heart change in Mr Abanes I don’t think there will be anything there to convince him.
This is my reply to all of Mr Abanes petty complaints to smooth the road for his friend Mr Warren.
Steve Blackwell
10 replies on “Richard Abanes Reply”
I too have encountered Abanes, on the Internet and on a personal level in my email box. He is a liar and I don’t apologize for speaking the truth any more than Paul the Apostle spoke the truth regarding false teachers. Abanes suppresses the truth in unrighteousness and he laughs as he does it. If you dare refute his falsehoods he turns on you. He is in no position to accuse ANYONE of being “rude.”
What boggles my mind is how can someone who claims to be so into discernment and who has published so many books supposedly exposing false teaching not see the New Age connections that Rick Warren has been forming over the last 8 years? Abanes can write a book on Harry Potter yet defend Warren in all his yoga-loving, labyrinth-walking, New Age-accepting heresy. He can’t see past the end of his nose. His defense of Warren tells me that he doesn’t believe a single thing he’s written in any his own books, which means he only wrote them to make money off hot topics for which he has no true conviction.
R. Abanes says,”I applaud Dewaay for his candor, honesty, integrity, and spirit of genuine care/concern, and openness to hearing what Warren actually believes theologically. I am hoping that many individuals will see that this is all little more than an issue of ministry philosophy, rather than the emergence of some bizarre Warren Smith-esk, conspiratorial, one-world, New Age religion with Warren playing the lead Pide Piper!”
I am a good friend of Pastor DeWaay and attend his church. Bob DeWaay’s position on Rick Warren has not changed. Bob Dewaay never hated Rick Warren, he had concerns about his teaching – a ministry philisophy that doesn’t preach the gospel or confess Christ. This is NOT just a minor issue. Bob’s concern about Rick Warren was and still is that Rick Warren does not preach the gospel, not that he doesn’t believe it. Here is a statement prepared by Pastor DeWaay concerning the issues raised in this blog. K. Jentoft
May 31, 2008
I wrote my book, Redefining Christianity, assuming that Rick Warren actually believes the Saddleback Church’s statement of faith, but that he refuses to preach it because he wants to be popular with the world and grow his movement. I still think that could still be true—I give him the benefit of the doubt.
At the Saddleback Church conference he was speaking of winning souls for Christ and talking about his father’s legacy of building churches and winning souls. More than likely he believes Baptist doctrine. But along the way he was derailed by reading the church growth theory of Donald McGavran. While in seminary I studied under a disciple of McGavran. McGavran’s book was required reading. His philosophy hinges on this idea: “people do not become Christian for theological reasons, but for sociological ones.”
Rick Warren believed McGavran and set out to study people to find out what makes them tick so he could get them into church — thus “Saddleback Sam.” Purpose Driven is a franchise system to multiply this idea into other churches. Warren tells pastors that they do not have to change any doctrine to join his movement. The reason for that is that doctrine becomes unimportant because it is no longer taught. I don’t think Rick Warren changed his Baptist doctrine either; he just doesn’t allow it to determine what he teaches and what he does. When we met that is what I challenged him about.
So I have not moved in my beliefs nor have I changed my position on any doctrines I have preached.
I will not allow myself to be pitted against any of Warren’s critics. I read Warren Smith’s book and spoke with him on the phone. He is a wonderful brother. The New Age implications are in Rick Warren’s movement and are helping lead toward a One World church. But because he has publicly made statements besides his statement of faith that he believes there is a literal hell and that people without Christ will go there, I don’t believe Rick Warren is a true New Age believer, and neither does Warren Smith. Warren Smith simply says there are New Age implications to what Rick Warren is doing, and I agree with him.
Tomorrow morning I will make a statement clarifying what I mean when I said that we did not have theological disagreements in our meeting. Rick Warren did not disagree with my positions on doctrine in our meeting. But he did not comment on everything I said. Please read my book, because in it I point out that Rick Warren privately affirms orthodox Christian theology—he did so again in our presence. So this is not news worthy.
To set the record straight, for those who think I am suddenly okay with Rick Warren – I am not. I asked him to preach Christ and honor the idea of scripture alone – and I pointed out that he cannot have a “reformation” based on general revelation.
These are huge issues and he did not say he was going to change anything—but he did not disagree. Do Warren’s supporters really think that having an orthodox theology in private is all that God expects of a preacher? Do they think we should not hold Rick Warren accountable to sola scriptura? Do they think that we can have any old ministry philosophy even if doing so totally changes the definition of the church and her message from how the Bible defines them?
I challenge Rick Warren’s supporters to step up to the plate and demand that Rick Warren repent, as I requested him to do in my book. That statement is posted at http://www.twincityfellowship.com/special/appeal.pdf Otherwise they have no business claiming that I agree with them.
Bob DeWaay
Tim,
Thanks for the feed back.
I could take nearly all my time dealing with these knuckleheads, but I have work to do, and it doesn’t include going outside the walls to Sanballat, Tobiah. Actually I had a response for Brendt, and posted it last night, then slept a little uneasy so I removed it. It is difficult to stay focused, but the wall is coming along nicely.
I have to admit the traffic on my site has picked up; I guess that could be a good thing. The important thing is that there is definite progress in reaching God’s elect, a few here, and a few there; not the great numbers we see in the Emerging New Age Church, but those “few” are trimming their lamps and cleaning house. God is very good to us, even when He is being rude, confronting us with the “truth.”
Thanks again Tim, and I will be monitoring your site in the future.
Blessings,
Steve Blackwell
I guess it would be a bit of a stretch to state Richard Abanes is Gods minister.
Even though I believe that Richard is Rick Warrens minister.
I enjoy your blog Steve.
As one who has encountered Richard many times in the past no matter what you say its considered hate speech or some other kind of rehtoric by Abanes if you dont agree with his take on defending Rick Warrens faith.
We had a interesting exchange with Richard here on my blog
http://nogoofyzone.wordpress.com/2008/03/24/zletters-to-richard-abanes-concerning-ken-blanchard-and-the-new-age-movement/
I feel that Richard is blinded and influenced by a lying spirit. The same one that probably influences Rick Warren.
Richard is blinded to the way he speaks to others and then cries foul when others use even less harsh speech on Richard.
I believe 2Tim 3:13 applies to to Richard and we need to continue to pray for him that the Holy Spirit will open his eyes.
Peace
Tim Wirth
Brendt,
I gave a couple of references above as to where servants of the Lord were accused of being rude, but if that isn’t enough here are a few more references.
First let me remind you that those who would serve the Lord are not patsies for the Devil or the world, they speak the truth boldly and without fear of man. Jesus and all the Apostles, except John, were killed for their directness in presenting the truth, along with many others in history who stood against evil during their watch. In Paul’s words he “became all things to all men that a few might be saved.” If we read Paul correctly we will see clearly that his “becoming all things” included being “rude” on occasions, which earned him stonings and whippings. Of course the immediate concern with most people is, “where is the love?” That can not be overlooked in the presentation of the Gospel. What we deal with mostly on this site is an emergency situation. At this point in history, and this particular time and place, many niceties are set aside in favor of brevity and directness. This is not to say that we are to always be rude, but rather that we should be obedient to Jude’s directive to “contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.” This “faith” is under direct attack by the forces of evil, and as the old saying goes, “war is hell.”
Having said that please take some time and read the following references: 1 Kings 18; 2 Kings 1; Jeremiah 23; Ezekiel 13; Matthew 22; Matthew 23; 1 Timothy 1; 2 Timothy 4; Titus 1.
This is only a partial list. If a person is a student of the Bible he will readily find that the Bible is for the most part a negative book, of wrath, judgment, and condemnation. It is the knowledge of this judgment that has become alive, and real, to him who is reborn that compels him to bring this message to the world. It is this message of the wrath to come and a way of escape that is the Good News, not just salvation, but salvation from HELL! This message will earn you no less than it earned those who went before us: persecution, rejection, and many times a label of being rude; that’s just the way it is.
Steve Blackwell
Way to go Steve.
Mr. Abanes has visited and commented on my blog (or tried to) quite a few times.
We must not feed the wolves. 🙂
Lynn,
I am always pleased to receive mail from fellow soldiers. You are very kind and your words are like a medicine. The attacks of RA are likely to intensify as he draws other bloggers to his side. I have made it my personal commitment to try and avoid confrontations with the likes of people like RA and focus on the purpose of my own site, and that is to reach those who are being blindsided by false teachers like RA and RW. You are right his skills in argumentation are honed to a fine edge and he knows how to divert the conversation away from the main point to some nonessential area with smoke and mirrors. Thank you much for the address of Jim Baumgartel’s web site, I have added it to my reader, and Roger Oakland is my friend also.
Arizona is a wonderful state. I was stationed at Tucson in the sixties and wanted to make it my home, but never followed through. I love the desert and Fernando Ortega and can’t listen to his music without returning in my head to Tucson.
This war we are waging we know we have won. It is our offering to the Lord to stand firm in His great, and sufficient, and wonderful truth, and to offer up ourselves also, and to deliver to Him, in person, and to lay at His feet, the reward of His suffering, our own crown, that He may be all in all, and us complete in Him.
Now it is back to the trenches.
Blessings always,
Steve Blackwell
I seem to have in “three’s” tonight. I didn’t see the R&D list of sites until just now. Roger Oakland is a precious man, and just came back from Israel where he was touring with Pastor John Higgins of Calvary Chapel TriCity in Tempe, a ways south of us here. Do you receive Roger’s email prayer alerts and news updates? I was SO happy to learn that he and Myrna would be traveling in Israel with John and troup, because Roger had just had a hard go of it in the Philippines, between health struggles and some resistance to the message he was bringing to the indigent pastors there. He is a tender-hearted brother whom the Lord has given a real boldness to about warning the Christian community of the popular stuff polluting the churches in the name of Christ.
Goodness! I know there are other sites, but no one spells out the truth quite like this lineup to the right.
(I hope you’ll check out Jim’s site, mentioned previously; I’d class it with Berit’s as far as knowledge of historical-political-biblical relationships go.)
That’s it. You’ve endured my trademark 3-part email ‘onslaught’ and now qualify for advanced status (You’re past the ‘initiate’ stage now.) (Woo-hoo.)
Lynn
FYI Steve, I’ve changed my email address to one that is more active, in case you find yourself inclined to email me. I usually provide the other until I have a better idea who it is I’m communicating with, or until I’m sure it won’t be published for others to see.
Lynn in Phoenix
Hello, Steve. I have encountered Richard Abanes on the internet and know very well what you are talking about. He is a sly one, with masterful skills of argument and rhetoric. Most of us who see through the man are not near adept enough, skilled enough, quick enough, to effectively counter his arguments and throw the light of day on his sleight of hand.
I was happy to see your remark over at Kim’s website. I had about a 4-page retort/diatribe prepared to submit to Kim and folks there, exposing Richard for the fraud that he is and bringing out some salient points about Rick Warren that Richard manages to continually dance around. But I was pleased to see it wasn’t necessary (I wasn’t convinced my input would have amounted to a lot of help anyway, as i expected Richard would pounce on it and make mincemeat of it like he does everything else.)
Anyway, this is my long way of saying, glad to make your acquaintance! I’ve enjoyed what I’m finding here. I was immediately taken by your lead article/post.
If you haven’t already discovered him, I believe you’d find Jim Baumgartel’s website Proclamation, Invitation & Warning to be right up your alley. http://www.procinwarn.com (or was that .org?)
He has come to the same realizations you have, and has documented his story of coming out of Christian activism, etc., etc. Very informative and useful site. I think he had a better format a while back, but with a little digging you’ll quickly strike gold. He’s a dear brother with an uncommon wisdom. Your site tells me you and he would be good friends.
Well, just wanted to say hi and thanks for the content. I’m personally familiar with your whole Blogroll to the right, and have tremendous love and respect for every resource mentioned. All At His Feet has been a tremendous wealth of blessed subject matter to me. I have had the privilege of conversing with Berit as well as Carol at In Plain Site (both absolutely priceless sites). Deborah at Lighthouse Trails, Ingrid at Slice/VCY Radio, and I receive Bob DeWaay’s CIC in the mail. Some very wonderful people with very precious resources to offer the Christian community.
Our family has been gathering information about the error and falsehood overtaking the church for about the past seven years, having left two churches in the past eight years, both producing severe heartache. The blindness that overtook our beloved church and pastor is still hard to believe. It would take quite a while to unfold for you our experiences and observations. I won’t attempt to do that here. But it’s a pleasure to have discovered you, Steve, and I look forward to returning often.
Thanking God for the sight He has given us, painful as it is,
Lynn in Phoenix